Obviously, there is no way for me to be able to guarantee anything, since often times a play area, personal preference, or plain old bad dice can make or break a list. But I'll do my best to offer my outlook and suggestions for the lists I receive on a macro and micro scale, so that you can get my insights as I look into the overall balance of a list, and at each unit in it.
Today's list comes from John Lay. He is running a 1,500 point list out of Codex: Space Marines, but has not specified a Chapter Tactic
The List
HQ
Master of the Forge (155)
The Shield Eternal
Power Axe
Elites
Legion of the Damned (165)
Legionnaire Sergeant (1)
Power Axe, Plasma Pistol
Legionnaires(4)
Heavy Flamer
Troops
Tactical Squad (185)
Veteran Sargent (1)
Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon
Space Marines (9)
Plasma Gun
Lascannon
Drop Pod (35)
Tactical Squad (160)
Veteran Sargent (1)
Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon
Space Marines (9)
Meltagun
Drop Pod (35)
Scout Squad (73)
Veteran Sargent (1)
Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon
Space Marine Scouts (4)
Heavy Bolter
Land Speeder Storm (55)
Multi-Melta
Scout Squad (73)
Veteran Sargent (1)
Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon
Space Marine Scouts (4)
Heavy Bolter
Land Speeder Storm (55)
Multi-Melta
Scout Squad (154)
Sargent (1)
Camo Cloak, Sniper Rifle
Space Marine Scouts (9)
8x Camo Cloaks
8x Sniper Rifle
Missile Launcher
Scout Squad (154)
Sargent (1)
Camo Cloak, Sniper Rifle
Space Marine Scouts (9)
8x Camo Cloaks
8x Sniper Rifle
Missile Launcher
Heavy Support
Stormraven Gunship (200)
Total: 1499 points
Godfrey:
This list has me intrigued, and I personally feel it has the basics for a very solid contender at giving some armies out there a run for their money. It's almost a tenth company army given the high number of scouts, which you don't see much of these days, and I'd be interested to see how they fare. Combined with some Tactical Squads to give them some solid cover and protection as they drop in it's a great way to keep your scouts out of enemy fire. There is a swarm of scoring soldiers on the ground and I defiantly like that, but I may have some suggestions down the road which may go against that mentality. Overall the list feels like a solid framework, but I do have some thoughts and suggestions on where things may be improved upon.
Corvus:
Right away, I'm thrown for a loop on this one. Big chunks of this list seem to be working against one another and it seems to lack punch. I can see Godfrey's praise for bringing mass troops, as it is a valid strategy, but I feel like it's also missing out on some of the best parts of being a Space Marine. It's not a bad list by any means, but I'll be pitching some large scale edits as we progress, so that you can better capitalize and synergize on what's here, without hopefully damaging too much of the core structure.
Heavy weapons in drop pods, an empty storm raven, heavy reliance on scouts, and again, heavy weapons in things that really want to move. The LotD are even a little schizophrenic. The Axe on the MotF is wasted since the servo arm is no longer autonomous. Two drop pods is awkward. Aim for one or three. And there's 40 points tied up in veteran sergeants. Why? Those squads have ATSKNF. Why do you spend points buffing their leadership? Especially on the two five man scout teams. Those will just die long before they have to take their leadership tests.
Macro Scale Review
I didn't see a Chapter Tactic listed, so I am not sure if there is something you're working towards specifically in terms of fluff. In sheer terms of what works well with the list, Iron Hands, or Salamanders both provide you with something worth considering. Iron Hands gives your units Feel No Pain 6+ and helps your Master of the Forge's repairs out a little bit (especially if you take my advice coming up on the Ironclad), and the Salamanders (while less helpful) do grant you some master crafted bonuses for your squads. If I had to chose one or the other, the Iron Hands make a stronger case as a good choice for you to use with the list.
I can see why the Master of the Forge was chosen to lead this army. His bolster Defenses will work great with the Sniper Scouts, and allows them to grab some nice cover saves while they throw out some sniper rounds. The two drop pods present some early threat with one of them coming down, and the other Coming in later. I'd agree with Corvus that if you want to run pods, odd numbers work best because of the "half rounded up" stipulation on Drop Pod Assault. It just works out better that way. But I have a means to fix that issue for you.
I'd suggest dropping out the second drop pod in your list. Honestly it doesn't really need to be on the unit with the Lascannon anyways, as it's only really restricting the unit from firing early. I'd drop that unit's pod, and consider trying to combat squad it. Keep the Lascannon in the back with your sniper scouts, and throw the remaining 5, with the sergeant and the Plasma gun in the Stormraven. Remember you can put troops in there, and it also give you a place for that melee Master of the Forge to ride up in. Just a thought on that.
I'd offer that you may want to find points for a Dreadnought of some kind. My personal favorite is the Ironclad. Since the unit of Tactical Marines inside is pretty weak, with only 5 guys plus the MotF, the Ironclad will give them some very nice melee protection, as well as just using the capacity you have to carry it up in the Stormraven. You have saved points already if you dropped the pod out, and I'd consider snagging the rest of the 100 points you'd need from one of the Sniper Squads or Land Speeder Storm Squads. It's not necessary, but you have a large number of troops on the board, and so dropping one doesn't hurt you too badly at 1,500.
If nothing else, the addition of a Dreadnought would be a great way to move up from 1,500 to the 1,850 mark.
Moving on, I love the inclusion of the Land Speeder Storm Squads. You get to be troublesome for those Deep Strike armies, and it provides those units with high mobility and deployment options. I'd keep one or both in reserves and fly on after some of the enemy's firepower has been diminished. Otherwise if your playing on a board with dense terrain, you can use it to skirt Line of Sight and get your scouts into position easier. I like the veteran sergeant upgrades here. Since the units are small, and may be in melee combat at some point, the buff helps a little bit. If you are scrounging for points, you could drop them to save up for other things. Generally unless you really want to put some special wargear on the sergeants, the veteran upgrade isn't terribly necessary. This goes for the Tactical Squads as well. They serve a purpose to bolster the unit a little, but the army rules bail them out regardless.
The Legion of the Damned won't do a whole lot, but do offer some nice shots to throw into a weak unit in cover. They'll make short work of Tau pathfinders, Eldar Rangers, or some other cover reliant, high-priority unit. Otherwise just use them to put additional suppression on units you're firing at.
The list feels healthy, and as always will have great match ups, and bad ones. Remember that Scouts often rely on cover saves, so try to nail anything that can remove those from you ASAP. Other than that, it's a unique and fun means to run something you don't normally see out of the old Brodex Astartes.
Corvus:
Like Godfrey, for the list written as is, Iron hands would be the way to go, and it plays nicely off the MotF you've brought to lead your forces. As for the MotF, I feel that TSE is a little wasted on him. You're paying an awfully steep tax to force your opponent to only chew through two wounds. I understand that protecting your warlord is crucial, but the T5 of a bike might better serve your purposes here, depending on what direction you might choose to take the list based on the suggestions that follow.
I'm on a similar page to Godfrey regarding the interaction between bolster defenses and the sniper scouts, but I'm wondering why you have two full ten man scout squads, especially when it might be challenging to take full advantage of the bolstered terrain with even a single ten man squad. Certainly combat squadding the sniper teams gives you four potential pinning outlets, but they'll be easily dealt with (even with a 3+ cover, 5 T4 models aren't too hard to remove), and will be unlikely to put out much offensive firepower before they die (snipers are cool for hunting big monsters, but BS3 hurts).
Either cut yourself down to a single pod or bring a third, and if you keep the pod, drop the lascannon. You can't split a combat squad half into and half out of reserves though, which unfortunately knocks that suggestion from Godfrey. That said, I'd encourage cutting yourself down to one pod and putting troops in big bird. If they have to cope with dangerous terrain tests from jumping out in your movement phase, they're safe, and they will force a very hard decision on your opponent on how much fire to dedicate to them, especially if they have your warlord (assuming you didn't put him on a bike), are capturing an objective, are scoring Linebreaker, or some combination of the three.
Cutting a sniper squad, as well as the drop pod and lascannon should easily make room for a nicely fitted Ironclad dreadnought, who will buddy up excellently with your IH tactics, as well as the MotF who's riding in the big bird with him. Front and Side AV 13 is solid, and getting him into CC is a sure way to remove or tie down anything that isn't a MC.
The Storms and their contents certainly open some dynamic play options for this particular list, but I'm a touch leery of them, due to their being the only armor you start on the table. They're small enough to hide, and could potentially opt to be reserved, but remember that putting the single scout squad on the table leaves you very vulnerable, even if your drop pod comes down on the first turn as well. Heavy reliance on reserves without manipulation is almost certainly a recipe for disaster. Piecemealing yourself out or spending too many turns in reserves means you're spending turns not shooting, which seems to be something you have a fair amount of points tied up in doing.
Unlike Godfrey(sort of), I will tell you to cut your Vet Sarges. That's 40 points which is doing almost nothing for your army. You're Ld 8 with ATSKNF, you're pretty safe from breaking and running off the table. The scout squads, equipped with their bolters, don't really want to get into CC, and the bonus attack at WS4 (woo +1 WS/BS on vet scouts!) isn't going to make them win fights they'd lose. Consider if you will, buying combi-weapons for those same models, rather than the veteran upgrades. It isn't amazing, but it could bail you out in a pinch much more than that bonus attack will.
Legion are awesome and are one of the few "higly killy" options I see in the list as is. Their wargear could use some tweaks, but that's for later discussion.
As written, this list will have trouble with alpha strike armies, as well as those heavy on MCs or vehicles. It will also have trouble against opposing gunlines due to lack of high volume, close in shooting which can be followed up by assaults. This means that Tyranids, Guard, Tau, Necrons, and Eldar, as well as certain Daemon builds will give you fits. You'll potentially excel against other marines though, as they may clog under sheer mass of your bodies at this points level.
Micro Scale Reviews
The Master of the Forge is a solid choice for this list. I'd keep it. The Power Axe is something Corvus isn't a fan of, and honestly I'd have to agree. Since you now have to use the servo arm as a weapon (they aren't just free attacks anymore), I'm not sure you need an axe, since they both drop you down to Initiative 1, and at that point the Servo-Arms are just way better. If you want an option, you could go for a Sword or Maul, but honestly having a dual armed bonus with S8 AP1 is pretty awesome. That nets him 3 attacks, with 4 on the charge as it is. I'd say save the 15 points and just rock the Servo-Harness.
The Legion of the Damned are fine, with one tiny addendum. The unit already has the ability to ignore cover. Because of this, I'd make the argument to lose the Heavy Flamer for some other heavy weapon. If you wanna use some point savings from other suggestions I've made, throwing on a plasma Gun and a Plasma Cannon would make the unit hit anything like a truck. I'm fairly certain Corvus will agree with that stipulation. Remember that you can load up a plasma pistol (which you have) a plasma gun, and a plasma cannon all on a 5 man unit. I've had it hit me from no where... and it hurts. The axe can stay or go, but I'm alright with it. It gives the unit some beef in close quarters, and keeps in the theme of killing anything in a 2+ save.
The Tactical Squads work nicely, with the note that I made earlier on dropping out the first unit's pod. It just doesn't gel well with the unit's wargear, and dropping it saves you points and allows you a unit to put in the Stormraven. The other squad works great, so I'd say to leave it as it is.
The two Storm Scout units will serve a good deal as mobile scoring units and can be used greatly to reduce deep strike problems. I'm not sure about the Heavy Bolters. They could serves as good platforms to fire from, but this will decrease the unit's crucial mobility. These units play nicely with your hard cover sniper units sitting pack as they take pot shots against the enemy. I'd still say you could drop one unit of these scouts to make room for other things, but it isn't necessary. As to which one to drop, it'd be up to what your play area looks like as to whether you wanna drop the storm scout or the sniper scout. Just think on which one of the two serves you better, and re-allocate those points into something that helps against the issue of what your enemy's list contains. I still like the Ironclad as a solid melee deterrent fro your forward troops, especially if you rock the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic.
The Stormraven as I see it doesn't make use of either of it's free swaps. I'd make the argument that your list has plenty of anti-infantry in it's troops, and that swapping to the Multi-melta and probably the Lascannon could help you to deal with enemy mech. Since it is your primary anti-air unit, I'd further argue that the anti-mech shots serve better. And the best part is that the swaps are free, so doing so doesn't alter the rest of your list. How great is that?
It feels like a solid list, as I said before. If you take the suggestions I gave, it might help to round out some of the units in the list, and give some added punch where it needs it. I hope these suggestions help!
Cheers!
Corvus:
Godfrey hit the nail on the head with both the MotF and the Legion, especially if you consider my previous comments about the Master. I understand that the plasma pistol and the power axe (especially on a WS5 Legion Sergeant will really make you want to hunt down termis, but the heavy flamer doesn't synergize well with that notion, is is wasted on your Flaming Projectiles special rule. Load out on all the plasma you can find and cut down anything they come down in range of.
Likewise, Godfrey was spot on about the tactical squads, plus or minus changing out the Veteran for a combi-melta. Melta is not dead and a bomb of it can really help marines deal with Necrons and Guard. If your area has a lot of these, consider getting some combi-melta Sternguard.
The scout squads in the Storms need a lot of work. Cut their sergeants. They're 5 dudes. They will die before they have to test leadership. Cut the heavy bolter. The Storm lives or dies by its jink save and snap firing the heavy bolter gets you nothing. Change out the boltguns for either dual armed or shotguns. Shotguns let you act like shoota boys and sit in the Storm and do drivebys, while the dual armed makes you a potential CC threat, or at least a tar pit. If your area has lots of Tau, Eldar, Guard, or chaos Daemons, consider dual armed. You won't win every fight, but softening the enemy up with some focused fire should tip the scales in your favor.
Godfrey is again, incredibly right with respects to the Stormraven. You rock those thunder hammer-like missiles and utilize the free Multi-melta and Lascannon swaps and you own the skies and compensate for the lack of anti-big stuff fire that is a symptom of three scout squads.
It's not the worse list out there, but in my opinion and assessment, as written it has more bad matchups than good, especially in the current meta of Xenophilia. The changes Godfrey and I proposed should help it to succeed better against its good matchups, while helping to shore up its weaknesses, which is exactly what a solid revision or update should do: emphasize strengths, minimize weaknesses. Hopefully Godfrey and I have also been able to shed some tactical light on how you might be able to play your list and get the maximum possible mileage out of it.
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